You Are Sacred - Indigenous Healing Through Art & Story Telling with Sarah Anne Gustal

In this episode Sarah shares how her own healing and decade long journey reconnecting with her indigenous roots has inspired her recent book “You Are Sacred”. 

Sarah speaks to her new approach to creativity: tending to her inner child. She shares her experience with imposter syndrome as a writer and artist. A few of her favourite mediums are working with water colours, ink, writing meditations and felting little animals for her two year old son.

An impassioned indigenous activist, Sarah shares her story of healing that has come from learning teachings from elders, the importance of passing along the traditions that were once silenced in shame.

You will find updates on the release of “You Are Sacred” by following Sarah on her Instagram, linked at the end of this transcription.

Transcription

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:00:37

Welcome to Creative Alchemy. Sarah Anne Gustal is an Indigenous mother, author, artist, yoga teacher, and massage therapist. Through all of her work, her intention is to bring others back into a reciprocal relationship with the Earth and understand the sacred connection we not only hold with one another, but all living things across Mother Earth. The lens that all of Sara Anne's offerings shine through is that of decolonization. Her approach is to heal yourself, to heal others, to work together, to heal the earth. Recently, Sara Anne has received a Lulu Lemon Community spotlight in the Okanagan Shoshwap region for her yoga class called All My Relations a Yoga Practice for Reconciliation. Her book, You Are Sacred, is being released this June, and she is set to drop her first collection of art prints soon as well. This conversation is really wonderful, not only because Sarah is a talented artist and her work is incredibly profound, but this is also a great opportunity for listening and learning. I've linked some resources in the show notes for people eager to learn more about Indigenous experience in Canada, and I encourage you to listen, to learn, reflect, and get involved. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Sarah Anne Gustal.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:02:10

You and I met, I think, in person in 2019, right? Yeah. And you came and introduced yourself after a workshop that I had taught. And you were living near a national park. We're in a national park, right? Like riding national park, yeah. How beautiful. And since then, you and I have had kind of parallel pregnancies. We became pregnant very close together and experienced Pandemic motherhood, you know, whatever that means, because I think everyone's experience is very different depending on where you were living and what your life situation was. But you're an artist, and you are a multifaceted artist. You are a writer, you are an illustrator. Tell me more about what being an artist is like for you. What mediums do you like to work in? What are you inspired by right now?

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:03:09

There's so much, I think, for me, it's taken me so long to hear someone call me an artist and not instantly, like, shrink. Do you know what I mean? A shrink away.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:03:24

Why do we do that?

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:03:27

I don't know why we do that, but I'm really trying to step into that for myself more than anything and just accept that. Yes. And you know what? For me, it is that when I realized that I've been an artist, literally since I've been out of the womb I remember being a kid and the same as now. I think for me right now, my journey as an artist is feeding my inner child and working for my inner child as well, because I remember being a little girl and just, like, sitting outside on my favorite rock and drawing with oil pastels and not needing anything else in the world. And so I'm trying to come back to that of just creating art. To create art, not to create art, for it to be something. Do you know what I mean? And to feed that part of myself because it makes me a better person when I listen to my inner child. And I live to feed her, and I live to satisfy her, because I think especially when it comes to art, when you work from that place, it helps you release that societal expectation, like that ego that we've all been ingrained into us when we come to making something on, oh, I hope people like this, oh, this is going to get me this type of recognition, right? And when you come away from that and work for your inner child and just create, because it feels so good to create. So, yeah, that's my journey. I can't even remember what your question is, but for me, that's what art is. And my mediums change all the time. And I think that's why I've always had such a hard time hearing someone call me an artist is because I've never specialized, quote unquote, in any type of medium. It moves, it ebbs and flows so much where my creativity speaks through and where my inner child speaks through. So right now, it's writing. I'm doing a lot of writing. I'm painting. Watercolors is my go to with painting. I like combining watercolor with ink. I just think it's so whimsical to combine those two mediums. I felt I make felted toys for my son all the time. It's my favorite thing because it's like, Oh, he's into this, and then I make whatever he's into while he's napping. Like he's into bugs right now. So I made a bumblebee for him. Teaching yoga, honestly, is such a creative outlet for me, especially as a writer, writing my own meditations and choreographing a class. I love making my playlists for my yoga classes. It's like such a science to me to make the bell curve yes, the bell curve to create the bob in the room. But also, teaching yoga feeds my inner child in a way that nothing else really has, because I've always been athletic. I've always been in sports and an athlete. But yoga speaks to I used to figure skate competitively when I was younger, and it feels the same to me being a yoga teacher. It feels like choreographing dances every time you get to teach a class and finding how movements flow into one another. I feel like that little figure skater.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:07:01

It's like a gentle it's like a gentle choreography. It's like an invitation. So choose your own adventure. If you'd like to come into, let's say this, dancers pose, you're welcome to or you're welcome to just lay there. And that's what I love about yoga, too. It's just this sort of choose your own adventure. How are you feeling in this moment, in this morning, in this today aspect to it? But I think that's what you were saying about, you know, I've never chosen one specific thing. So to hear somebody call me an artist, it feels weird. But I feel like that's the experience of most artists is that, like, they like to explore many methods of expression and artistry. Like, one person loves painting and singing and music, playing instruments, for example, or playing with pasta paints, for example, that I've just discovered these amazing markers that we were chatting about earlier. That's wonderful. I think for me, I just started bringing more music into my life. And that's something that's really opening me up in a way that has been so unexpected. And that's an aspect of maybe myself or more my inner artist that I've sort of really kept protected. Like, it feels extremely vulnerable for me to sing or to even play an instrument in front of people. It's really, really a lot. But practicing kind of opening that up in myself, I can see other aspects of my creativity sort of like, expanding. And that's really neat because I never saw the correlation between the two. And what I love, especially about it is that it's not for anything. Like, I'm not trying to be a singer to get paid for a gig, and it doesn't need to become like, the thing. But you've recently created the thing. Yeah. Tell me about creativity and motherhood and what has maybe, I guess, essentially birthed. You created a human, but then you've also got this amazing creative project that you've been working on, so I'd love to hear more about it.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:09:33

Yeah. So I wrote a children's book called You Are Sacred. And it's also aligned, like, all of the journeys that I have been on, I'd say, in the past three years, just kind of aligned together to create this book. I am Indigenous. I'm a jibwe and Anishinaab, and I started reconnecting back to my culture like, twelve years ago. And so much of that journey was private and solitary and introspective and a lot of shedding of shame because I was brought up to be ashamed of being Indigenous. I'm half Indigenous. My mom was a full indigenous woman. And so when I created this book, it was kind of at this pinnacle moment in my life last summer, where I finally felt like I had done the work to take up the space in indigenous spaces, in indigenous groups, in indigenous culture. Because I really, truly feel like I owed my culture and my ancestors that work before I took up that space, and as well as other Indigenous people, right? Like, there's so many talented Indigenous, especially artists. It's so intertwined in our culture and our way of life since the beginning of time. Our creation of art is part of how we survive, right? Like, clothing is a form of art, and if we didn't learn how to make clothing, which is an art form, like, we wouldn't have survived the winters. And it just goes back so far. So last summer, it's actually a four year internship that I'm doing right now. Well, not internship, it's like a mentorship program that I'm doing to learn medicine from an elder. And in that mentorship, you spend two to three weeks living out on this piece of land. So our reserves, there's a couple of reserves in our area that the national park that I lived in. Writing Mountain National Park, is actually our territory, our ancestral lands that were taken from us from the national parks, which is pretty common. So I spent the last summer in three weeks staying on this portion of the land that has been given back to the Ajibwe people in Riding Mountain National Park, learning about medicine and learning how to properly gather medicine, learning really about that teaching of all my relations, which is a common teaching that a lot of people who are non Indigenous have probably heard mentioned, and it speaks to that everything on Earth is related. We're all children of Mother Earth. The trees, the flowers, the animals, humans, everything, right? We're all related. We're all made of the same things. So through that program, you share a lot too, right? There's a lot of sharing circles involved in Indigenous teachings, a lot of Indigenous gatherings, and in the sharing circle. And I remember coming to the realization last summer that I lost my mum when I was three to suicide, which is a very common thing in Indigenous people. And I realized last summer that I had always had a mother in the land. And speaking to an elder on that, my whole life, that little girl that would sit on a rock and draw, that was the land. My mother, our mother, holding me, right, embracing me, making me feel safe. So I was thinking about that and how realizing that last summer changed so much of my perspective on the world and of my entire life up until that point. And then I have a child. I have a child who I finally have the opportunity for the first time in my family, to be the first generation to have my child be immersed in our culture from birth. There's been so many generations of my family that have been taught to feel shame for being Indigenous and that it was hidden. And my grandmother went to residential school, my great grandmother went to residential school, and it just keeps carrying on. So to have that opportunity to immerse my son in that culture, from such a young age was such a gift and such a gift that so many of my ancestors didn't have that it was literally illegal to teach their children the culture. They would have their children ripped out of their arms. And last summer, with more people learning the truth about residential schools, it was a really potent time for me last summer, and it wasn't an easy, potent time, but there was just so much aligning in kind of a difficult way. But being a mother and also an indigenous person, when we're learning that this country of Canada was built on the bodies of babies and realizing that if I had been born even 30 years, 40 years before, that could have been my child. So I wrote the book, You Are Sacred, for those children, my ancestors, who were taught to feel shame for being who they are, not just indigenous, but who weren't loved. And it's not just indigenous people. There's so many children in the world who are taught that love is conditional, that love is earned. And there are so many children that don't feel special. And so I wrote that book, this book for them, as well as my own inner child, my own son. And so the book speaks to the teachings that I just said, that the Earth is a mother figure for all of us, and we just have to search for those messages from her. We have to listen. So the book takes I call the main character in the book Sacred. His name is Sacred. It goes through his day and how the simplest things in your everyday life are signals from the Earth that she's listening and that you are sacred. So when it's cold in Manitoba and you see your breath in front of you, that's a message from other Earth telling you that she's listening, that she's there appearing in front of you to tell you that you are sacred. So the book kind of goes through things like that, things that kids do every day that every kid has access to, right? Like, not every kid has access to a hug every day, right? But every kid has access to a rock that catches their eye, and that rock is a reminder that they're sacred, right? So all of these things that all children have access to can be. I want them to know that that is a reminder from Mother Earth that they're sacred. And I think what it does, or what I hope that this book does, as well as make every child who reads that book feel special and sacred, is to it's really hard for me right now. We live in a time of, like, call out culture, and I don't think that that's going to get us anywhere with the goal. Like what indigenous people are seeking land back, reconciliation, all of these things. And we do hold a lot of anger as the people. I do. I 100% hold a lot of anger within me. But I can't make change if I work from that anger. I can only make change if I work, first of all, from our grandfather teachings, which at the core of all of them is love. So pulling people in from a place of love so that they have an understanding of what these movements mean, of what the land back movement means, what reconciliation really means. So this book is an opportunity for that, for kids to sit down and learn these teachings in such a wholesome, joyful, loving way instead of and I mean, these stories need to be told, too, about the true history of Indigenous people. But I also want people to have access to Indigenous joy and the beauty behind a lot of our teachings and our culture. So this book was an opportunity for me to hold space for all of those things. The illustrations in the book are all animated, so the trees have faces, the rocks have faces. Everything has a spirit. And the illustrations portray that, and it shows children and parents, too, that that's true. You know, these trees are a nation, the plants are a nation. Everything's living and everything's sacred, and everything communicates with one another. I'm so excited for this book to come out. It's been a journey of imposter syndrome. I've had so much trouble speaking about it through the process because none of it ever felt real through the whole thing of, like, that even being called an author and doing things. It just still it's something I'm trying to work through and work on and hold space for, but also not if that makes sense, like, hold space for that feeling, but also not work from a place of apologizing for the space I'm taking up in the literary world. And I'm proud of this work. I honestly never created something like this that I've ever been. This I stand behind so much. Like, I feel so strongly about the message in this book. And I really believe, like, I put in a whole year's work into this book, and it's like a work of love. So I'm so excited for it to come out and for other people. And it's that place, too. I'm not working from ego, but I'm just so excited for other kids to have access to this story and for people to read these words and feel how I felt creating that book and realizing that teaching it's so interesting because.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:20:32

This book is absolutely such a gift for so many people, adults, children, especially Indigenous nonindigenous. I think I'm so excited to have it on our library. But it's so interesting that even though, you know, this is an incredible gift and the work is so profound and the message is so profound that you still grapple. Like, it's even been a personal journey of healing for yourself with your own experience as being an Indigenous woman, that you're still grappling with this imposter syndrome. And it's just wild that we can dedicate, like you said, in a year of our lives, to putting our soul into something, having it be so healing and really deep. Really you're birthing something that is an expression of your experience and a gift to your son and a gift and an honoring to your ancestors. But there's still this aspect of imposter syndrome, and I think that that's something that would resonate with anyone as an artist. We were talking about accepting yourself as an artist. I wonder what it would look like or how it will move forward for you as, like, the process of releasing this project into the world. I'm so excited for you to step into that more because you talk about it so beautifully, and this is, like, clearly such a reflection. This is like a testament. This is you speaking your truth. It feels like your soul sort of unraveling into this beautiful story. I even love the title, You Are Sacred. The message is so beautiful. I'm really looking forward to seeing what it looks like for you to really step into it, because you did write it. You are a writer, and all of these things that you are saying are true, and everyone is rooting for you as well. There's not a single person that I can imagine that is like, oh, I.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:22:51

Hope the book doesn't go out into.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:22:53

The world, or whatever. We have these narratives in our head, these what do they call them? The negative, self limiting beliefs or our own sort of naysayer in our heads. And I think that's the only one that is sort of blocking you stepping into this power. So I'm excited for you. And you are on a journey being connected with Lululemon. And I know that they do a ton of work in personal development and personal growth, so I'm excited to see how it all unfolds.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:23:33

Yeah, what she said to you about you were talking about honoring your journey, honoring these things. And for me, actually following through and putting this art and this piece of my soul out into the world has been a lesson in that. If you don't show up for yourself, then no one else will. Do you know what I mean? If I don't finish making this book, no one else is going to finish making this book. If I don't believe in this work, no one else is going to believe in this work by not doing it for anybody but myself. And that has been that, I think, has been the biggest growth that I've gotten from creating this book. It's, like, brought me back to therapy. That's been, like, super, super intense, to be honest with you. But when you honor your work and you honor the promises that you hold for yourself, it heals your inner child because it shows that little person inside of you that they matter and that they're worth being shown up for. And that is what I've learned from this, is just to show up and do it and put it out for no one else but yourself. And it's been like a super scary journey doing that, and it's been feeling really vulnerable. Like what you're saying with singing. This has always been my private thing that I've always done, is art and writing and all of these things, and now I'm sharing it and stepping into a role. Right. I'm an author. I'm an artist. And saying those words, it took me a long time to say them and not apologize. Well, I'm almost done, so I did this.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:25:25

Just do it on the side.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:25:26

Yeah, exactly. And to say it is like, yeah, if you don't say it, no one else will. If you don't put the work in, no one else is going to do that for you. And yeah, you have to. If you don't hold promises to yourself, no one will. Right, right.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:25:53

And so I think people would be interested. I know. I'm very curious. What was the actual process of, like, putting together a book and, like, going through the printing process and all of that? I know your partner, your husband, is a graphic designer, so I'm sure he was a wealth of knowledge, but I'm sure you are the project lead and the creator of this whole thing. So what was the process like behind.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:26:18

In the beginning of it? Because you sent me a course on self publishing, and it's been great.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:26:25

I forgot about that.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:26:26

Yeah, you sent me a course, and I read through the course, and I had already created the book in a way. I honestly still have no idea so much of how this it's been so much of a learn as I go process and just focusing on what I need to do now and then we'll deal with that later. And this whole process, too, has been a lesson in following my gut. I had actually, at a point in this process of creating this book, was supposed to be publishing this with a publishing company. And I had gone in for meetings, and I met with them, and I was, like, a millimeter away from signing a contract.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:27:06

And why didn't you like a gut feeling?

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:27:11

It was a gut feeling. And it was also I wanted to do this now. And it's funny how so you learn how connected everything is when you start to get into the gears of putting art out. So initially, I wanted this book to be a board book, and the publishing company I was tricking with pardon me.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:27:31

It's tricky in the publishing world. Board books are, like, for people listening. They're the sort of the cardboard, hard books that babies can't rip up, but they're actually the only sort of print, I think, in China. They're really hard to kind of get published.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:27:44

Yes. So they're really hard to publish and especially now with what's going on in the world and the war that's happening in Russia and the Ukraine, a lot of stuff comes through Russia to get to Canada. And it was going to be years before my work was going to be out. And the publishing company that I was going to be working with, they're known as a very large indigenous bookstore that's online, and they were moving towards being they're putting more work into being known as a publishing company. And I just don't feel like I didn't want my work to be a launching pad for something else. I wanted my work to stand alone. And because they were evolving as a company, there was a lot of new people in the work. And for myself, I'm completely new. I'm totally green to all this. And for me, why I wanted to work with the publishing company was to have that experience around me, to help me through these things that I don't know a lot about. And so I met with them in April and decided not to sign the contract with them. Now, they're still amazing. I'm still working with them on another project, actually. This book has been a catalyst for a lot of things. So I'm working on a project right now that's actually school books that are about initial culture that will be wow. In schools across Canada.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:29:18

That's so interesting how you said this book has been a catalyst. The process of your deep healing has been a catalyst for this. I feel like it's like the book has been this is the part of it, and maybe that's the thing that's making all of the connections or it's propelling things, but really it's like this beautiful unfolding coming from your healing, from your story, that is this catalyst, I.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:29:46

Guess that book, you could say, because it was a catalyst for my healing. It was a catalyst for all of this to happen because through that healing, I found self worth. And that self worth has been what's helped me follow through and put things out there. In a way, it has helped me heal. So it's been that catalyst to having the confidence to stand behind my work and believe in putting it into the world instead of just keeping pages and pages and notebooks and notebooks and sketchbooks and sketchbooks full of my art that I never share. So, yeah, it's been a journey. If I think to this time last year that I'd be sitting here talking on a podcast, talking about a children's book that I wrote, I would be like, living in where my family has wanted to live in such a long time. It's been a journey like, holy smokes, people don't talk about that process of creating art and what it dredges up, I think, especially when you're working on a project that takes such a long time like that. And when I started it, I remember being like the books written. The books written. Right. It's a children's book. It started as a what's next? When do you print? Exactly. So the process has been a learning experience. It's been like, okay, how do we do this? And 100%, I can't talk about my book without acknowledging the help and the privilege of having a partner who can take my art and make it into a book, of having that resource that's right there whenever I need it. And I'm not setting up meetings around my kid. I live with this person who understands formatting and how to physically make like a book spine. Like what? These are things you have, like the direction of a title, like the books that are behind me in my shop. It's like, you'd ever think about these things? Or like, I did all the illustrations for the big pages and then you realize that there's so much more art to create after you make the actual pages. Right. Like it's the font and then the little doodles around the font and it's.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:32:06

Putting little flowers in the corner.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:32:09

Yes, exactly. And then also where I live, fortunately, there's a printer here in seminar. Oh, wow. Yeah, just doing it local. And then the publishing company I was going to work with has still been really supportive. They'll still be selling the book on the website that they have, like the large indigenous bookstore. Yeah, I'm going to do a pre order for the hardcover book because that's been the thing that I have no idea about, that I've been learning about is the production of the book and how to get it into people's hands without putting myself in debt as a self publisher.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:32:49

Totally. Shipping is crazy and really sort of tricky. Like, I would imagine a couple of sales trickle in here and there or you get like 100 and then you're batching orders all week.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:33:03

And the thing is, I'm self publishing now because I really just want this book to be in the world. But the way publishing works too, is three years down the line, a publishing company can be interested in it and just buy the rights. That's the thing too, is I put in a year's work and I didn't want to just be getting royalties for this creation. And it's kind of weird talking about the finances behind being an artist, but I think that you have to have that mindset and you have to have such hard boundaries as an artist because of the labor that goes into it. Just not just the physical labor, but like the emotional, mental labor that goes into putting art into the world is you have to be so protective of your value. And that's, I think, been a big lesson in this. If I worked for my ego, like I spoke from before, I would have signed that contract with the publishing company because that's society's version of success as an author. Right. And so to honor that intuition I had of believing in this book enough that I don't need a publishing company because I didn't in the end, I have a husband that can create the formatting. I am an illustrator. I don't need a publishing company to have someone else illustrate my book. I have access to all these things that I didn't need, that I didn't need it right now. And eventually maybe that might happen, but it's just not something I needed.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:34:31

Yeah, I think that's important. And I hope that those kind of conversations around finance and being a creative and finance happen a lot on this podcast. This is something that people don't necessarily talk about or they don't talk about it. They talk about it very like lucidly where they're like, then I made money. And then you're like, but did you make good money? Or okay money? Or are you comfortable? Or what does that look like? Answering because there's an upfront cost. When you are self publishing, you have to put sometimes $10,000, $20,000 depending on how much you're going to be printing and what the demand looks like. There's this whole aspect of business to being a creative that sometimes people get drowned in because it's a totally different shift of your mindset. Exactly what you were saying. Well, how amazing that you followed your gut. When can we read this? Beautiful you are sacred book in our physical hands.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:35:40

My book is being printed the first version next week. So the way approaching it, let's not gatekeeper. Let's talk about this whole process and actually fully what it is to self publish. So the first edition is going to be done released locally. So there's some book stories in seminar and in Kelowna that will be carrying my book. Two in Manitoba that will be carrying it. Just because it's new. I'm not written. Follow me on Instagram. It will be on there where you'll be able to put physical books. And then I'm creating a second edition, which will be hardcover, but only offered as a pre order book because let's talk about the business it costs. I don't have the funds to print a bunch of hardcover books and hopefully buy them. Totally.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:36:31

I don't have a warehouse.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:36:33

Yeah, exactly. I don't have a warehouse. I live in a two bedroom home. I don't have room for books. I have a toddler that would destroy them. I tried to store them here.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:36:43

Sticky jam pages.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:36:44

Yes, exactly. So the second edition, and to make it different than the first, there's going to be an educational glossary in the back of the second edition that will explain the significance of some of the illustrations. There's an illustration with a star blanket, so it talks about that. There's an illustration of grandmother Moon and of Grandfather's son. So explaining the significance in our culture to that. There's regalia in it. So ribbon vests and ribbon skirts explaining those things. A couple of initiative words and phrases that will be in the book as well. So the second edition will be different than the first. The first edition is going to be a soft cover book of just the story. And honestly, it's going to call it a soft launch because I'm open to feedback from kids. So I'm sending it out to a couple of people as like, a beta tester to see how kids respond to the story. So that should be available, I'm hoping by I'm looking at my calendar, by the 17th, the week of the 13th, 17th, I should be having those available in person. And then by the end of June is when the pre order should be available for the hardcover book. And the hard cover book will only be available right now in a preorder form. So all that detail is kind of and that's like the thing I'm learning is I can't give any set dates because it depends so much on, like, production and other people that it's like, it's kind of in the hands of other people. And it was funny when I declined the offer for a contract. At that point, my book was barely finished because I was waiting on them to keep creating. And then I was like, you know what, I'm doing this myself. And in a month, I created all the illustrations, all of the painting, everything in a month. And it was like, I work so much like that, though. I'm kind of like I'm one of those crazy artists, like, that stays up till like, three in the morning working, because that's when I work the best.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:38:58

Even in motherhood?

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:39:00

Even in motherhood. It's just and I'm trying to balance that's been the biggest challenge, and I'm sure you feel that way as well, is it took me more than a year, I think, to begin to feel like myself again after having a child.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:39:14

And 100%, that's exactly my timeline.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:39:17

And like, not getting lost in just being a mom, because there's so much of just being a mom. Your physical body, your mental attention, your emotional attention, so much of it is focused on your child. So when I be in focusing on other things for myself, there was so much guilt that came with that. And it's a lose lose situation, it feels like, because I can spend an evening working in my studio and then I don't put my son down to bed and I feel guilty, or I can stay home and put my son down to bed and then I don't finish the work that I have and I feel guilty. And nothing ever feels like the right choice as a mother.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:40:02

Absolutely.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:40:02

And it's just been first of all, it's having a partner that's there I would never be able to do this if I didn't have an equal partnership with or parenting roles as my partner, who also works full time. Yeah, it's that balancing act of just like, swallowing the guilt. And I had a therapist tell me like seven years ago that guilt does not serve you. Guilt serves no one. And an elder told me last year, guilt is a Catholic concept. Guilt is not something that we acknowledge in our culture. We don't feel guilt. Guilt is something that came to this land of colonialism. And so I try to remember that with guilt and that we don't live in a society that supports motherhood anymore. We don't live in a society that supports a stay at home mom. We also don't live in a society that supports a working mum. So much of everything, especially in the past year, has just been decolonizing my perspective on everything, like decolonizing my perspective on motherhood, on being an artist, on being even indigenous. There's so much decolonization work that happens behind the scenes with all the decisionmaking that I make and which is why I'm starting to share it with other people, because especially for women, I feel like learning that perspective, that first of all, we live in this made up world that humans made up. Like money is this thing we made up. All these things that cause us stress are just these things we made up and that we're living in an imagination, but we're living in an imagination of a white man. And if you're not a white man, it's really hard to live within those boundaries. And I have to acknowledge I heard that on a video somewhere from another creator, I heard those words somewhere else, that we live in the imagination of a white man. But it's so true and just being gentle with myself when you think about that, this world wasn't created for my success. So you're just going to have to do what you got to do to get where you want to be kind of thing.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:42:21

Yeah, you had mentioned last summer had been really intense and it felt like a huge population of, well, Canada and North America had been illuminated to a lot of truths that were not known before to the general public, let's say. And it was really interesting as somebody who has known these stories for a long time, most of my life, it was really interesting sort of stepping back. And I live in a different country. I live in Panama. So just to kind of take a step back and watch all of this really like this learning unfold. I know this about myself. It can be a fault sometimes, but I am an optimist and I know that all of these people that maybe are wanting to learn and have come onto this, let's call it new knowledge, even though it's not new knowledge, that there are people that really want to learn and support. And I think that your project will be so well received. And it makes my heart feel hopeful knowing that people are open to listening to new voices that previously didn't have space, didn't have an opportunity to.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:43:51

Have.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:43:51

A place in the world. And when these stories were told, they were not given the appropriate time. I couldn't agree more what you said.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:44:09

To you about that. You've been aware of it, right, and your whole life and from a different perspective, and I have two. But what was interesting from my perspective is so half of my family, my mom's half of the family is Indigenous. And it's such a weird thing to think about because I always knew growing up that I was Indigenous, but there was no connection in my family to any type of culture because so much of the shame from residential schools was so deeply ingrained in my family. My grandmother had rosaries above the bed, and last year opened up space for our family to talk about what really happened and for my grandmother to share stories that in my entire 31 years of life has never shared. And then for the white half of my family, like, for me, that was the interesting perspective last year in that time, is seeing it from both perspective. I saw it in my Indigenous family. It was an awakening in a way that it was healing. We're releasing these lives. These lives are coming to light. Our stories are coming to light and release. And change is difficult no matter what type of change it is. And so we were all working through that. And then my white half of the family is coming to terms with my dad grew up in a town where, to this day, the residential school building still stands where I grew up, to brural, Manitoba. That school still stands. My dad my dad's side of the family was very poor. There's nine kids. And so when my dad went to the residential school growing up, they would go there to play. They had a drink, and they had a dairy farm, and they had all these things. So my dad saw them as they had a better life than him. Right? And then so when this first started coming out, and it always baffled me, because my dad married an Indigenous woman, had a child with an Indigenous woman, and I just never understood how he could have this perspective. But he, for the first bit, was like, oh, Berto wasn't like that. Not all schools were bad. And then through the mentorship that I was doing last summer, my dad got to meet my elder. My elder went to that residential school in Brutal, and she shared her story with him. And he finally understood what was happening behind closed doors. And he went through this whole process, and it was heartbreaking and beautiful to watch, because I think for him, he lost a lot of innocence from his own childhood, realizing that these kids, he was playing with what they were going through when they weren't around him, and then the guilt that came along with that of why didn't I do something, even though he was a child himself? So my dad grew so much in the past year too, through all of this. And for my dad too, I think a part of why he upheld that shame within me was almost a form of protection towards a whole world of inequality and racism that he, in his mind, thought he was protecting me from. So it was really interesting. And then my husband, who is white in a settler descent, like mixed European descent, but who has always been so empathetic and such a great listener, he did a program called Next Up, which is a program across Canada that brings people from all, like, walks of life together to hear from another. It's basically like it teaches you how to be an advocate and an activist. This program that he did, so, he had learned, and that was, like, six years ago that he did that. But for him, my husband, who's always been on board and, like, you know, these stories for these stories, it changed. What does it mean to be a Canadian? What does it truly mean to be call yourself a Canadian? And that's the struggle my husband went through is we travel a lot before we had a child and before the Panini, we were backpackers. We did a lot of traveling. We're always proud to wear a Canadian flag on our backpack because of how we're represented to the rest of the world. But the rest of the world is so unaware of the true history of Canada because the government has silenced that story for so long. So what does it mean? What does it mean to be a Canadian? Like, for him, it doesn't even feel good to call himself a Canadian anymore. And for myself, too, that was part of my decolonization, is realizing that through the treaties, that actually isn't my government. Like, the Canadian government, really, if we were to follow the treaties, has no governance over me and my decisions. Yeah, it was a very interesting time and also my own relationship with what was going on. And with my mom too, it was almost like regriving her death, realizing that those residential schools is the core of why she took her own life and why so many Indigenous people, why there's an epidemic of suicide among Indigenous people is because of those schools. So, yeah, potent times. And then I wrote a book because of that whole journey. And I think part of why I have so much or why I had so much and still sometimes with the imposter syndrome is that right now in the world, because of what's happening in Canada, and with the truth coming out, it's become trendy to be Indigenous. And I had to do so much self reflection and so much checking in through this process of making sure that I was so scared of being an opportunist and being seen as an opportunist and as an Indigenous person, or maybe not even Indigenous, because there's some lateral violence happening in Indigenous people right now, because there's so much protection that we're feeling towards our culture and our identities that have been that are being appropriated in a way now that it's so deep and it's so woven into so many aspects of society, the appropriation of our culture that through this journey and calling myself an Indigenous author, it was so much of like, am I worthy of that title? Am I representing my community properly and wholly? And it's hard because I wasn't connected with my community for most of my life, and it took a long time for me to reconnect. And I'm like so now I just think I can go around representing my entire community with these teachings. So that's a lot of where that imposter syndrome came from, too, is, am I Indigenous enough? And I think there's so many people who are mixed ascent, not even just Indigenous, but black Latino. Well, your son, too, he'll be mixed. And it's such a living between two worlds, feeling and reminding yourself on a daily basis that Blood quantum, first of all, is a colonial concept. Concept, and that I'm a whole person and that I'm a whole initiative woman, even though a card from my government has something different. Right. What art can bring up when you're creating.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:51:47

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's exactly it. Art is an expression of who you are, what your soul is, and that this is yours, and it feels like this is just the beginning for you.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:52:03

So you spoke before about we met at the end of one of your classes. It's called the Big 50, I believe.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:52:09

Yeah, it's called Big 50.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:52:12

And I spoke to in that class, and I still talk about this class. Like, I have chills in there. I was talking about this class. There was a room of, like, 200 or more people, women, and we all spoke our goals out loud. And it was like, I started making manifestation boards after that program or after that class because I never believed in it, really, but I was like, Wow. You can't deny the power of that energy in that room of people speaking their truth and speaking of it, like, manifesting. You could feel the energy that you couldn't deny it. So I started making manifestation boards after that class, and it's just like it's funny when you start making them, and then the more you make, the more specific they get. For myself, anyways, they kind of zero in through creating them on what you really want. And since that class, things that I didn't even know I was manifesting at that time of my life are now here. And I think about you all the time in that class. I remember you saying, I want to find a way to find, like, a home in Panama. And here you are with a partner and a child living in Panama.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:53:32

I think about that class all of the time. The class is called the 50 and it's basically intentional goal setting, but really like tapping into your heart and connecting with the life that you want to create for yourself. The energy was so potent, it was so wild. And I also get coupons just thinking about the things that people shared in that class. I remember there's one woman who stood up and said, I'm going to spread my mother's ashes. Another was, I'm going to write a book. And I remember my turn coming around and I had planned to say something else in that moment. And what came out of my mouth was, I'm going to live and create a home in Central America. And I remember being jarred that that came out of my mouth because I was like, that wasn't my plan to really say that out loud. And the next month I was in Panama and two and a half years later I have not returned home. Yeah, I'm still here. And now I have a home and a child in a car here. Yes. So my partner is Panamanian and he has a pizza business. So we've bought a little chunk of land so that he can continue growing his dream. And my dream is to build a women's artist residency here. We need a little bit more space on the land, but we're starting little and going from there. You're doing the things yeah, no, I'm so happy you brought up that class because that was a really special day. And I think you were just pregnant, right?

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:55:22

Yeah. I think you were just telling people that I was pregnant. Yes. So, Darren, I remember, my son was also there.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:55:31

How magic, how incredible.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:55:35

I remember seeing when you're pregnant and I was like, yeah. What a journey it's been these past like, three years.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:55:45

It's incredible. I know. I feel like it's been like hyper condensed pressure cooker of lots and lots of things. And some people have had a really difficult time and some people have had a really wonderful time and some people it's been both. And so, yeah, it's nice to feel that people are slowly coming out of the woodwork, though. Like, things are slowly kind of I don't want to say returning to normal because I don't know if that's not really possible. We're just sort of like moving forward, whatever that means. But yeah. So I'm excited for the day that we get to reconnect in real life. I don't know when that will be. One day when you come to Panama. Yeah, exactly. You should come and host a retreat here or something like that. Yeah, come write another book when it's ready.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:56:41

So I was just talking about this this morning because first of all, my book is coming out this month and I am writing working on a project right now. And it involves writing seven other books.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:56:59

Wow.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:56:59

It's still in the manuscript phase, so it's not like something I can really speak a lot about in detail, but it's going to be in schools like across Canada. And then I also applied for a writer's mentorship program for indigenous people that I'll find out by the end of June. And it's just like, wow, by the end of June there can be a lot of shifting. A lot of shifting. And my husband was because the whole time through this, we're in a new town, right. My husband would introduce me like, this is my wife and she's all these things and she's writing a book and she's not there. And I would say that like, don't say that. And now he's like the end of the month, he's like, there's going to be if all of these things fall into place, you can't stop denying that title, which is yeah. And even just the learning of creating a book is what made you want to apply for this internship program. Because there's just so much to learn. There's so much to learn and to have an opportunity to learn from other indigenous authors who have that same perspective, it would be such a gift.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:58:11

Oh my gosh, I am crossing all my fingers and toes for you because that would be so incredible. Is it? Through the Banff.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:58:21

Artist present, I applied for the Audible Indigenous writer circle. Oh, cool. Yeah. If I got in, it would be an amazing opportunity. But it was kind of funny. It came to my attention two days before the deadline and I read through the submission requirements and I was like, oh, I just have all of that stuff right now. I didn't see how it goes. And we'll see when you hear by the end of this, there are so many learning opportunities that are available too.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:58:57

Well, and I was just going to say you should take a peek at the Banff artist residency. They're world renowned, they're incredible and they have really interesting programming for my friend.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:59:10

Is about to do a residency there for two weeks. Wow, she's amazing. My friend is Kate Curry. She lives in seminar here. She owns the yoga studio that I work at. She's an artist and she's going to be doing residency there and yeah, I had heard about it before. I've had other friends who are musicians who have done resumes.

Monique Pantel (Host) 00:59:30

Yeah. They're quite musical. There.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 00:59:35

Whole new world is opening up to me of learning opportunities and these things that yeah. Stepping into the role of like, okay, whether it's artist or like author or whatever it is, is just stepping into the role and being open enough to share that I share that part of me to be open enough to learn more right. Is I've held it so close for so long that I've never learned from anybody and I've never other than my husband who's great and also a great resource, but yeah, I've never opened up that part of myself to learn more, so that's even a part of like it doesn't matter what happens with any of the stuff I'm putting out into the world. I'm really excited to have more opportunities to learn and expand and own my class.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:00:25

I think there's a whole different energy when it comes to learning and collaborating. It's so, so expensive. Recently, in the past, like two years, I've had the opportunities of doing a lot of collaborative work in writing and production and it just brings a whole other perspective to things, you know, different feedback, different life experience, different stories, and it's just so cool. Well, I'm so excited for you. Like I said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. I really hope that all unfolds, so you'll have to keep us in the loop. So thank you for sharing your stories. Thank you for sharing your nap time conversation. I got oh my gosh, it's so lovely. It's so lovely. And your son is just so precious. So I can't wait to watch.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:01:26

You sent me videos for this of your little while. I was like, oh my gosh, his little curls are so precious. How old is your son now?

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:01:40

He is 17 months tomorrow.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:01:43

Okay.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:01:44

He's almost a year and a half.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:01:45

Yeah. Darren is 22 months at the end of this month.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:01:53

Yeah, close. Like three months. Apart from his house.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:01:56

He's recently gone through like this huge he's like three foot two already and he's like a year and a half and he's so big. And I see other people's little babies and I'm like, oh my gosh, how was this giant so small, like that size not that long ago. It's a trip.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:02:14

Motherhood is such a trip.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:02:16

Oh my gosh. Yeah. You were saying about like we're all in this big changing time, but it was so interesting coming into this time in the world but also going through the portal of becoming a mother. Like, holy smokes, what a trip is, right?

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:02:32

Yeah. Next level stuff. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could talk forever.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:02:39

I want to talk with your birth to tell me everything I know.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:02:44

Have to do a part too.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:02:45

Yeah. Do you like a mother's one? Like a bunch of mothers and you just get to talk about all of the pandemic mothers who haven't got to share their birth stories with anybody because.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:02:54

In lockdowns it was a totally different experience, I think, because a lot of the cultural, the ways that we celebrate motherhood, we couldn't gather. We had to do these like virtual zoom baby showers and some people couldn't have their partners in the birthplace and it was so interesting. So interesting. So I think you're right because the first episode we talked with Ashley Clawson and we are going to do a second episode and chat a little bit more about motherhood and creativity. So maybe we will line that up too. Maybe once your book is out in like a month from now. That would be so nice. When you follow up. I'd love to hear.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:03:42

Yeah, I'd love to do that. I'm sending you a copy. So you'll have read it by then and we can talk about it in like a full no secret kind of way. Yes, I love it.

Monique Pantel (Host) 01:03:58

Well, thank you again. It was such a pleasure chatting with you. I'm so happy we are connected and I can't wait to watch your journey.

Sarah Anne Gustal (Guest) 01:04:10

Thank you. This was so much fun. It was so nice.

LINKS

Creative Alchemy’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/creativealchemypodcast/?hl=en

Sarah’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/saranneliza/?hl=en

Monique’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/monique_pantel/?hl=en

Monique’s Website: https://www.pantelphoto.com/

Truth and Reconciliation Act - Calls to Action: https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Calls_to_Action_English2.pdf

Where are the Children Buried? https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/AAA-Hamilton-cemetery-FInal.pdf

Give generously to support clean water access to indigenous communities: https://waterfirst.ngo/